In Conversation With - Erin Deering Keane, Author & Mentor.
In Conversation With is a series to discuss the bits often left unsaid - personal and intimate topics such as self-acceptance, relationship with mind & body and the societal pressures + unrealistic standards of life with the internet. Through this series, I hope you feel a little less alone and a whole lot inspired.
In conversation with Erin Dearing Keane, a woman who has been on my wishlist for years, which just goes to show that persistence, dedication, and being a bloody good human always pays off. Erin is a business mentor, author, and host of her own epic podcast, The Work. She is Zac’s beautiful wife and an absolute super mum to not one, not two, not three but four amazing little humans - Oscar, Ollie, Beetle, and Bobby, all eight years and under. From us to you, we hope you enjoy this conversation. …
EC. Erin, I couldn't think of a better guest to shoot the shit with when it comes to talking all things motherhood. You have spoken honestly about feeling resentment towards your kids caused by having to sacrifice so much of your time for them. This is a common experience for women, particularly if they're more career-focused and value their own time. A simple hashtag search of #mumguilt comes up with a whopping 90,000 posts yet search #dadguilt and there is less than 1000. Why do you feel mum guilt is so prevalent, yet dad guilt is somewhat unheard of?
EDK. I'm very fortunate. Zac and I share the load and he's an incredible support but I have days where that annoys me too because although I've got great support at home, I do feel the emotional load because it all falls on me. Men don’t have the same emotional guilt. They go about things in a very pragmatic way. It’s either a yes or it’s a no. It’s simplified for them which I'm very envious of sometimes. Women are just biologically more nurturing and we feel more, we're more empathetic in most situations.
For me, I value my work as well and I have to harness that feeling and know that I'm teaching my kids how to put themselves first too. In saying that, I feel like I've made peace knowing that mum guilt is just a part of life and the only way that I am able to get over it is knowing that I'm very foundationally grounded in that. I'm doing the right things - career wise, family wise and I know what I'm putting first. I know what my priorities are and for me at the moment, it's family, career and that's it. My social life and everything else falls to the wayside but that’s all I can do at the moment.
This is where working on yourself comes into play too because when you have that grounded baseline, you can make decisions without panicking, feeling out of control and feeling like you’re terrible at work, terrible at being a Mum and terrible at everything. Instead, you just think - I'm doing my best!
Sometimes the guilt is valid too. It's there and you have to make decisions that might not support your kids best needs but you just have to do it and know that you'll get that balance back at a later stage.
EC. Like myself, you're a big believer that fashion is a wellness tool however you're a little more calculated than most fashion enthusiasts. When it comes to dressing, you're a big fan of sticking to a formula to make dressing easy and enjoyable and with four children, that makes sense. Can you share a bit about what this looks like for you?
EDK. Last week I planned my outfits the night before every day and I've not done it this week so whilst I have a formula, it's not consistent. In the morning I'll usually go to my wardrobe and give myself a few minutes to think - What did I wear yesterday? How’s the weather? What am I doing today?
I talk to myself a little bit about the few things I've got on that day, then think about how I'm feeling -
Is today a day I want to wear makeup? Do I want to put heels on? Is today a day I want to feel comfy? These answers have a lot to do with my cycle - Do I feel good in my body? Do I feel a bit yucky?
I just chat with myself - sometimes in the shower, sometimes in my wardrobe, sometimes driving back from school drop-off, whenever I get that little bit of time.
I usually like to build around one piece. This will probably change but at the moment I pick a piece that I want to wear and I'll try and make that work. If I have the time and flexibility to start my day a little later, I love the process of trial & error. My school drop-off look is often not my look for the day too. This morning I had other pants, sneakers and a coat on then I walked the kids to school, came back and during that time, I was thinking - What's the weather doing? What do I feel like wearing? Today I’m wearing a black leather skirt with high heels and these were both thought about because I knew I wasn’t walking much but felt like being dressy. I’m always tapping into how I feel and thinking about that in the morning. If I feel like being like a slob, I'll be a slob that day. I'll still make that outfit look polished though, but it will be in a more relaxed way because I'm honouring how I feel. I'll never go against how I feel and I'll never not wear something that's “too good”. If I feel like wearing the dressy thing, I'm not going to save it for a special occasion. I’m going to wear the dressy thing because I know If I don’t feel amazing, that's the thing that's going to make me feel amazing.
Sometimes I let my kids terrorise my wardrobe just so I can have that time to think. My youngest plays with my shoes and drives cars all over them whilst my other kids are hiding. I just think - I'll clean it later and try and stay focused. I know if I've given myself that time and invested in myself by putting something on that I know I look and feel good in, then my day is set. This is also not to walk down the street and have other people think, “Gosh, she looks great!”. I've never cared what other people think of my outfits. I could not care less. I feel good and that is enough for me.
EC. An energetic shift happens when you prioritise fashion and the way you look. It’s no different to food & exercise – when you make the effort, it positively impacts almost every other area of your life.
EDK. It does! It’s so powerful, yet so simple. At some point, most women had a style and it's usually kids that throw that off - pregnancy, the post baby body and the post identity crisis that comes with being a Mum. A lot of women have no idea how to find themselves again but you just have to try. You have to invest in yourself. For some, dressing is more important than exercise because it starts to cultivate this feeling of feeling good through what you’re wearing. That then gives them the motivation and confidence to move onto other areas that they want to work on like exercise.
I think clothing and fashion is the easiest, quickest way to feel better. That action creates momentum. Exercise is the harder one right?! The ironic thing about all of this is that women usually wear activewear in the morning to try and fit exercise in, then they don't do it because they either don't feel like they have time or don't feel like it because it's hard, then they’re in activewear the whole day and wonder why they don’t feel good. Just don’t put activewear on at all for a while. Just skip that bit. Put on the outfit and deal with the exercise part later. I can't wear activewear outside of exercise. Sometimes I will and might put a coat on with it but I just feel so icky because I know I can do better.
EC. I often get messages asking if it’s a lot of time & effort to juggle multiple outfit changes being a Personal Stylist + Personal Trainer. Getting fully dressed though makes me feel my best and why wouldn't I want to feel my best? The input versus output is worth it. It’s less about the time & effort and more about the value you place on it. If you value it, it won't feel like you’re wasting time & effort.
EDK. I have a very big wardrobe with a lot of options and love the process of getting dressed. If you don’t love the process though, go simple every day. I follow women that wear jeans, a t-shirt and blazer but they look great and they wear that every day and look fabulous. You don't have to go from zero to a hundred. Take it one step at a time but get out of the clothes that don't make you feel good - get out of the activewear!
EC. You used to have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol, but you've also spoken about a potential unhealthy relationship with shopping. I've done a lot of research about addiction and although this is a little controversial, I’d love to hear your thoughts about addiction being nothing more than a strong limiting belief - Eg. Research shows that somebody who believes smoking is just a habit is far more likely to give up smoking without any side effects or cravings, whereas smokers who need to believe that smoking is an actual addiction for whatever reason (it makes them feel less shameful, stupid, weak) find it very difficult to stop. They're the ones who suffer cravings and withdrawal symptoms. What do you think about this?
EDK. Wow. It's a mindset thing, isn't it? Shopping, alcohol and disordered eating have all been addictions of mine in the past and I say that word loosely because I never felt “addicted”. I always felt that I was in control and in a way, I do feel that enabled me to get over these things on my own without becoming a real victim of them, if that makes sense?! It's a fine line between knowing when something stops becoming a healthy, fun habit - I love fashion, I love finding new things, I'm obsessed with it in a good way versus I need that dopamine hit, I'm obsessed with it, it's all I think about, it's affecting other areas of my life, it's become an obsession in a bad way …
It all comes down to the honesty you have with yourself of knowing -
is this good for me? Is this bad for me?
Binge drinking is so normalised and I never thought I would not drink. I'm not completely sober because I don't need to be. I don't believe I need to be. My drinking got to a point though where I would be anxious if I went out and I didn't have a wine in front of me or I would feel this urge to have one because if I didn’t, I couldn’t relax and I deserve to relax. It wasn't a conscious decision anymore. Through all the work I’ve done on myself over a number of years - the desire and those anxious feelings eventually fell away and so now it's a conscious decision if I choose to drink. If we go out, sometimes I won't order a wine. Sometimes I'll have one, sometimes I'll finish it and have another half of one and sometimes I'll have two but the need and the obsession has gone. My mindset around drinking didn't change but my mindset around how I valued myself changed. I didn’t want to have these “addictions” as part of my identity. They slowly became habits that I knew didn't serve me.
In saying this, I had so many drinks at my wedding and that was fun. Sometimes you can be human and have a great time. I've had enough fresh mornings though to know I can’t do hangovers anymore. Kids have been the quickest way out of drinking because I don't want to be lying in bed hungover. It’s a waste of a morning. I had dinner with a girlfriend last Friday night and I had already planned the glass of Chardonnay that I was going to get, I was ready! Then I thought - If I have one glass, I'm going to be tired. I’m already tired. I just want to have a nice dinner with my friend. So we ordered a tea and sat there chatting for three and a half hours which wouldn’t have happened if I were drinking alcohol.
My disordered eating was the first thing to go and heal itself, then the drinking and only recently have I got a good handle on shopping because that's a whole other story - that's a money story for me. I had this weird mentality that I was stealing my money which I think some women may relate to when their husbands manage the money, so that’s been interesting because I had that mentality with my own money.
Breaking the addiction cycle takes a long time too. It's not something that suddenly evaporates overnight. For me, it took years from realizing these things didn't serve me to letting go of that identity and that relationship with these habits.
EC. What are some of your non-negotiables when it comes to keeping your mental health happy?
EDK. Definitely exercise, that's my main one in the morning. Zac and I value exercise so much and I think what's so important for me is to have a partner who values what I value. My top three values are health (mental, physical & emotional health) - that's my biggest value! Second would be family and third would be what I'm doing work wise because it's my purpose and passion. If I attached words to these values, they would be integrity, intention and compassion. These are the values I check in with every day. Your values can change too. My belief system is the one thing that I am now very rooted in and that doesn't change. My belief system is strong. It's locked in but my values will shift at different times.
EC. So to keep your mental health in check and happy you always prioritise health, family and work?
EDK. 100% - I'm constantly talking to myself, checking in and asking myself - is this part of what I value? This is probably why shopping has dissipated because at the moment, fashion isn't at the top of what I value. It’s there, it's part of me but I'm not valuing it to the level that I'm valuing health, family & work. Those three things fill up all my time and I leave little time for anything else. Every day has an aspect of what I value and every day I embody those three words - integrity, intention and compassion. I feel like I'm on the right track if all three values are included in my day and it is at the moment.
My ex-partner used to say - design your perfect day and I hated him for it. Initially, my perfect day felt very self-obsessed but now, I am living that day every day and you can get there too if you work on those foundational things. You have to start though by acknowledging that sometimes your values are kind of … shit! They might be surface level. If so, it just means you've got a lot of room for growth which is exciting. It’s exciting to be on that journey and to move forward in those ways to find that out about yourself. When it comes to personal development work, the things that terrify you, make you uncomfortable, make you feel fear, terror or shame, they’re great! It means you're being called to go on that path and tune into that. That's where the magic lies.
EC. One thing I love so much about you is that you speak openly about wealth. Even as a multimillionaire, you've had to learn the hard way that money doesn't equal happiness. Would you credit your happiness now to your values & the things you prioritise that mean the most to you, rather than wealth?
EDK. Totally! It's still a work in progress because I like monetising things and I think wealth is fine to want for certain reasons. For me, I don't need to keep accruing wealth because I don't have a plan for it but if I have a plan for wealth and want to grow my wealth, then that is fine. If you can seek wealth out with integrity, if you can seek wealth out with the right intention, then I’m all for it. That's great. The plan doesn't have to be a philanthropic plan either. It can be wanting to own a beautiful house or setting your children up but with the right intention, you can go after the wealth thing.
It was so freeing for me to have the experience of all this wealth and realising it didn't make me happy, even though society told me it would. The truth is, is that money makes the world go around and that's the reality but that doesn't mean by definition that money will make you happy. I had all of this wealth and I was miserable and that forced me to question every career ambition, drive and focus. I had to start again …
I absolutely want to monetise my work now it because it has to be a value. It has to be an exchange and I love business. It wouldn't have a value, if I didn't monetise it. People don't value things that aren't monetised. If I did a strategy session with someone and didn't charge them, they wouldn't make the most of it. They wouldn't ask the right questions. They wouldn't feel that they need to get their moneys worth and I wouldn’t feel like I need to give them their moneys worth. They wouldn’t go and do the work.
Getting to this point has been a real push/ pull experience because when you start doing spiritual work, you think – Wait! Is money ego and greed? Should I then abandon wanting that?
You start to understand though that wealth creation is abundance and abundance is fabulous. As long as you're not seeking wealth at the mercy of others or for something that doesn't serve your higher purpose. If you can justify it, go for it, as long as you are not making money at the expense of anyone or anything else, then that's great.
When I exited TRIANGL, I didn't get any of my money. Craig and I had a four year mediation and so all of a sudden, I had no money. I had this modest little apartment in Richmond and it was great. I was happy. I was mindful. When I did get my settlement, nothing really changed apart from the fact that I was able to move forward with a lot more ambition again because I had freedom around that money story. That's all that shifted. I still act like I don't have any funds behind me because my ambition likes to feel that pressure. People say “Oh you could retire” and I think - I would never retire. I’d have no purpose. I didn't work for four years after TRIANGL and it was a really bizarre time.
At the end of the day, you're still you. Money doesn't change your thoughts, not your real thoughts. Money can change some of the exterior surface level stuff but I guarantee that if you become a billionaire and have no level of personal development, you're going to get into bed at night and feel the same fears, insecurities and self doubt as everyone else. It was such a blessing to go through all of that and have these incredible moments of getting into bed on our super yacht and realising I don't feel good here. At the time I thought I'd never feel good. I hit rock bottom and just thought – “Well, I have to try and feel better because I have nothing else right now, so I have to try!”
EC. Do you have a mentor? Do you bring up new ideas and business ventures with Zac or do you prefer to keep business separate from friends and family so not to let their bias sway you as they often tend to do?
EDK. I'm very headstrong so when I make a decision, I'll go for it which has been great and not great in a lot of different situations. Zac is a grounding force and he is very happy to tell me the things I don't want to hear but ned to hear for my own benefit. He delivers it in a perfect, beautiful way and on reflection, he's always right. So I listen to him more now because he has a really great business brain which is different to my brain. I'm full creative so I live up in the clouds. He's the one that says - “Ok, I'm going to bring you down a notch and we’re going to step through this”. I've made some big mistakes not listening to him. I've learned those lessons and I definitely rely on him for advice a lot more.
I have a few friends that I talk to a lot about business. I don’t talk about it with family. My Dad is very entrepreneurial but he's running a business and he's busier than ever, so he has no time to talk about business. I'm at a stage where a mentor would be great, like a sounding board. I think everybody in business should have someone they can go to and ask questions. Only recently have I started opening myself up to that so I'm sure the right person will come along soon. I have put myself in a situation where I'm around a lot of people that champion me and whilst it’s great to have a lot of yes people around you, I sometimes feel like I need that person to be able to sit down and ask - “Why are you doing that? You should focus on this!” I'm missing that. I had that with Craig at TRIANGL. We were similar yet different and that drove a lot of our success, even though I hated him questioning things and he hated me questioning things, it created magic for us.
Question From Previous Guest, Olivia Arezzolo - What is your life motto and why?
It could change but at the moment, my life motto would be to live my perfect day every day because I really do believe that we don't know what's going to happen in the future. I've designed my perfect day for now and that's it. My life motto is to have that every day - if I can exercise, do my work and be with family, then I'm happy. It’s that simple.
This chat now comes with an actionable step - go and create your perfect day! Go and write your perfect day down and see how it matches up with your days now. You don't have to panic. Just start working towards it. It might be more simple than you think. It's really not hard. It's just knowing what you value and what fills your cup. Oh and what you wear is how you go about that perfect day …